Making Space for Queer Students at an HBCU: S02 E06
Lisa
So today, it’s actually the final episode of Collegeland. We’re working on making new episodes, but the show will have a different name and sound a little different. But more on that later.
Right now, I am doing one of my favorite things: checking in on a former student.
Amber
My name is Amber Esters, and I was hired on as the Education Coordinator at the Women's Center, March of 2020, so, right at the very beginning of the pandemic.
Lisa
Amber works at North Carolina Central University, a historically Black university in Durham, just down the road from where I teach. It’s where Amber went to college, and now where she works.
Amber
I was a student here at NCCU from 2009 to 2014. Central is actually a family school for me. My grandfather went here; I've had family members who went here. So I'm very familiar with Central and it was always an aspiration to go to an HBCU.
Lisa
I met Amber back in 2019, when she was a grad student at UNC Greensboro and doing an internship with the LGBTA Resource Center at NCCU. She was an amazing student and we would spend a lot of time talking about her internship. I was thrilled when she got a job at NCCU and wanted to hear how she was doing.
So today on Collegeland, we are going to visit the LGBTA Resource Center at Central. And coming with us is my good friend and colleague, Tiffany Holland.
Tiffany
You just can’t get enough of me!
Lisa
It’s true!
Tiffany
So real talk -- did you call me because this is like, an episode about queer Black folks?!?!
Lisa
Well…kind of? But another reason, honestly, I mean I just really love doing this podcast with you!
Tiffany
Thank you, Lisa. I have a ball doing this with you, too. And I especially love talking about Black queerness! And “official” spaces on campus for queer Black folks are incredibly uncommon in higher ed, and they are doing important work. I’m excited. Let’s do this!
{>>theme music up<<}
Lisa
I’m Lisa Levenstein in Greensboro North Carolina.
Tiffany
And I’m Tiffany Holland, also at Greensboro.
Lisa
And this is Collegeland.
{>>music rides and down<<}
Tiffany
Okay, so like, what exactly are we doing here?
Lisa
Well, I wanted to catch up with Amber. And, honestly, I was kinda following a hunch.
Tiffany
Oh, a hunch, detective?
Lisa
I just had this inkling that something really special was happening at NCCU. I mean, here was an HBCU making space for a dedicated LGBTA center in the South.
Tiffany
And what did you find out?
Lisa
Well, let me start by introducing you to Jennifer Williams. Because back when Amber was interning at the center, Jennifer was the Director. And she went to college at a predominantly white institution And she says that it was just not possible to hold all of her identities at once there.
Jennifer
I did my undergraduate at at a PWI and a lot of the queer students there made a decision- “am I going to be Black? Or am I going to be gay? Because you can't do both.” That's what it was at that particular point in time. And so to be queer, you were going to be the only Black person around. If you wanted to be Black, there were places specifically that I sought out as an undergrad. Where can I find people playin spades? Where's the gospel choir? I know that I could find Black people in those spaces.
Lisa
So when she started working with queer students at Central, that was a way for her to say, “you “can be gay and Black, you can trans and Black, you can be whoever you are.”
Jennifer
We establish these resources to make sure everybody's okay. What do you need?? Okay, well, if you need community, come here, we're doing this. And your soul will be fed and you'll be okay.
Tiffany
…whoo...okay. Honestly this is already really resonating with me. Lisa, I was an undergrad in the 90s. Like Jennifer, I attended a PWI, and I felt I was living two lives. In one life, I could be in Black space, which felt like family but at the time, family wasn’t always comfortable to me, because I wasn’t out yet. Butthen, in my other life, I could be out and date cute girls, but felt I had to listen to Ani Difranco and the Indigo Girls…
Lisa
Oh no! That’s who I was listening to…
Tiffany
Oh, Shit. Ok. No -- not that there's anything wrong with Ani Difranco and Indigo Girls, okay? But bruh, it was the 90s--a golden age of hip-hop and R&B! Just think like, Jodeci! Mary J. Blige! And they were not translating to the girls I was trying to talk to.
I wish I had community and a resource like the LGBTA Center, so I could just have been me, you know? Neither hiding, nor playacting. And Lisa, today, these centers are super rare at HBCUs. Right now, there are only four. Four!
Lisa
I know! I learned that from talking to Eric Martin. He’s the Coordinator of the LGBTA resource center at NCCU right now.
Eric
People think the world is changing. People think that the world is becoming more queer. And I always say that queer folks have always been here. You know, these are stories that have been told for… ages, we just have more access to it.
To know that the school that I was attending already had one and was willing to have those conversations through programming and have a funded center with a director and the coordinator was really impressive. Because we're only one of four and we were one of the premier ones in the HBCU division.
Lisa
So, Amber and Jennifer, and Eric make up this amazing constellation of people whose lives have been touched by the LGBTA Center in some way. And what’s interesting is that a lot of them sort of…stumbled upon the center more than they actively sought it out. Like, Eric…
Eric
I'll never forget, I was in the library and I was just googling stuff to get involved with now that I was here and I saw the LGBTA Resource Center? and I was like, oh, that sounds really dope.
So, initially, I just wanted to be around.
Lisa
And Amber came across the center while she was in grad school.
Amber
I was aware of my queer identity by didn't step into it, um, until I was able to learn more about it through the Center. But, grad school really does, in my experience, it has changed me for all the great and good and positive ways possible.
Lisa
Jennifer was also working on a graduate degree when she found the center—back when it was first opening, in 2013.
Jennifer
We had to do some type of project on people in cultures and communities that we didn't know about. And so I knew we were just beginning to open our LGBTA Resource Center and I was connected with a friend who was the then-GA. I consulted with her because my project was on transgender relationships where one partner is trans and that partner, um, steps into that identity while they're married. She was graduating that semester. And she was like, well, you know, go talk to this person and talk to this person. I think you would be good to be the GA. And at that point in time, I didn't have a job, so I was like, “okay, yeah, let's do this!” Um, I spent time in there initially just volunteering and I would just sit in the Center and listen to the students' stories.
Lisa
Now, the backstory here is that a few months earlier…
Jennifer
An RA said something out of line to a queer student…
Lisa
And there were a lot of students speaking up. So the university formed a committee to look at things.
Tiffany
And what happened?
Lisa
Well, ya know one win was the LGBTA Resource Center. And it’s a dedicated physical space, with paid staff, you know, something we don’t even have at UNC-Greensboro! And that’s the despite the fact that in many circles, people joke that the “G” in UNCG stands for “UNC-Gay…”
Tiffany
Ha, nice!
Lisa
I mean that’s how many queer students we have on campus. But we still have no dedicated space for them - and NCCU does!
Tiffany
That’s awesome! Sharing a physical space with folks who outright accept your gender and your sexuality and support you to come into that identity… I mean, it sorta feels like the gay bar in a rural area–the drinks might be shit, the music might leave much to be desired, but you show up because that’s where your people are at!
Lisa
Haha! I mean if we follow that metaphor: Jennifer was the bartender. But instead of pouring drinks…
Tiffany
Oh no! You’re really going for this?
Lisa
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah!…she was serving up community programs!
Tiffany
Wow! Okay, so let me try… What was on the menu, Lisa? Like, what were the specials?
Lisa
Well, they have discussion groups; they offer LGBTQ+ sensitivity trainings. Where everyone can learn more about queer issues and culture and encourage inclusivity in their lives. They offer resources for mental and physical health and for intimate partner violence.
Tiffany
Wow! Lisa, this makes me think of how right-wing racists love to shout all about “safe spaces.” They like to pretend that these spaces are not doing real work. When in fact, these spaces are truly about organizing and building community in order to legitimately save lives!
Lisa
Absolutely, research shows that students who join LGBTQ groups are less likely to experience depression. Which is actually really huge because we know that queer folks are twice as likely to report mental health issues and they are four times more like to attempt suicide. And these centers can also offer sexual health resources to prevent the spread of STIs.
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That life-saving care is part of what Jennifer was thinking about when she joined the center.
Jennifer
I had a cousin that was out, um, who, um, who lived for 14 years with HIV/AIDS. And he never told anyone in our family that he was sick. He died alone. And later when they were, like cleaning up this stuff, they found, like they were reading through like some of his letters and stuff. That's when they knew that he had known for 14 years that he was sick.
Why do families, why do Black families, because that was my experience, that is not all experiences, but why does this happen in this particular way with Black families?
So I'm grateful for what I have learned because I have had an opportunity to see, um, other folks have very different, very loving experiences. And for folks who did not have very loving experiences, I’ve also been able to be there for them and kind of, you know, just companion them through, you know, their undergrad experiences. I'm still connected to quite a few students, um, who check in on me too.
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Tiffany
That is...deep. And I am just in awe of how much Jennifer is hitting at so many different points here. Lisa, every semester, every class, there comes a point where my Black students -- queer and otherwise -- grapple with Black families’ accountability to the queer among them. This idea that Black families are more conservative, or more Chrisitan and are tougher places for folks to be out, every time, part of our work in those conversations is to try to break down how we even learn these messages about Black families. Studies show, right, that black people are no more homophobic than white people.
Lisa
Totally…
Tiffany
And part of the work that Jennifer is getting at, is that Black queer communities learn or affirm that there are so many ways Black people do (and therefore can) experience families. Families that are supportive and loving and embrace all that is queer and amazing and joyful!
Lisa
And Central’s LGBTA Resource Center is also committed to serving joy!
Lisa
What about the queer prom that you put on?
Amber
Oh, prom was absolutely fun. The students thoroughly enjoyed it. The music was amazing. It was so much fun. And I really look forward to the next prom. I just enjoyed it so much.
Lisa
Is there a sense behind the idea of the prom, that prom isn't something that queer students necessarily got to experience in terms of the totality of their identity when they were in high school?
Jennifer
Absolutely! Students said things like, um, "well, you know, I couldn't go with who I wanted to go with and I definitely couldn't go dressed as I wanted to be dressed. And so now I'm grown and I can do what I want to do so I would like an opportunity to do that." And so that's what prom was. You know, we, we like here at NCCU, like to set up a DJ, have a good time, you bring some food out and it's going to be a good time.
Tiffany
Undergrad me would have loved that party! Hell, old-and-grown Tiff wants to go to a queer prom right now!
Lisa
I know, right? But as you might guess, these big parties are just part of the work the center does to connect people who are coming from really different backgrounds or experiences, or identities. There’s this discussion group that Amber was a part of called Queer Queens.
Amber
It was an open space for queer-identifying femme people kind of just join in fellowship socialize and just talk. We talked a lot about identity, sexual identity, sexual behaviors, safety when it comes to, um, engaging in sexual activity, um, just kind of exploring different aspects of what it means to be a queer-identifying femme cause queerness, femininity, womanhood, those things show up differently for people and we all perform it in our own unique ways. You can be within a community and still have very different identities within that particular community. And again, that’s how diversity shows up. Having those discussions and allowing people to learn more about those who might share similar identities, but we're still different and unique and that's to be respected.
Lisa
And Eric has really been working on issues related to the intersection of bisexuality and trans identities.
Eric
A lot of the conversations that I've either been a part of or heard about bisexuality, right, is the idea that bisexuality is gendered and when it's gendered, it's usually for the male gaze. So bisexual women are typically more accepted in society. And so then you have discourse between individuals saying that bi men are secretly gay or bi men are cheaters, or what have you and both of those things are not true. Then when you add trans individuals into it, it’s the idea that trans individuals aren't on the spectrum of bisexuality because trans individuals, aren't men or women, or what have you. And again, we know those things aren't true. Trans women are women and trans men are men and the individuals who date trans individuals the sexual orientation it's not changing. They just are open to dating trans individuals. Right? But I also want to unpack the fact that trans individuals do receive a lot of discrimination from people who are not straight, because there is a difference between sexual orientation and gender identity, and a lot of cis-queer folks don't understand and so, yes, it's the “LGBT” community, but a lot of times it tends to be the “LG” community versus the “B” community versus the “T “community. And I think that's terrible. And I really want us to be able to have conversations that understand that struggles and oppressions may not be the same, but they're intersectional.
Tiffany
I am loving this conversation. We keep coming back to this theme of the expansiveness of these spaces. It takes honest and, oftentimes, difficult conversations to really allow ourselves to grow and make our communities stronger. One thing that Audre Lorde taught us -- in all her brilliance -- is that we need to recognize and embrace difference! Forcing people to be one type of Black or one type of queer only limits the potential of how we can be in and change the world.
Buuuuut, Lisa…relatedly, can I ask a question?
Lisa
Sure, what’s up?
Tiffany
Like, where’s the “Q” in this center? Why the "LGBT-skip-the-“Q-A resource center? Am I missing something?
Lisa
Yeah. No, it’s a good question, and I asked Eric about it.
Eric
Truth be told, you know, when I first got here, it's just like, I mean, okay, there's no “Q,” but you know, As of right now, it's thinking maybe in the future fingers crossed, we can talk about a name change that's more seamless because for me in my muscle memory, the “Q” is like a part of the acronym so like “LGBTA” is kind of like, feels a little incomplete, you know, you gotta pick your battles.
Tiffany
Okay, Eric knows his community and where they are right now. Plus, the acronym “LGBTQIA+” is ever-changing and evolving. I personally love “queer,” but I get why some people don’t like it. The word has historically been weaponized to stigmatize our community. But, I like “queer” as a verb; a thing you do. My crew and I are queer because we are about flipping things inside out, refusing to accept what is or has been as the only option. I do respect, however, that the folks at Central chose “LGBTA” and at the end of the day, they are doing the work of uplifting their queer students regardless of the name.
Lisa
And, you know, I think it is important to add that Eric’s doing a lot of work to reach out to folks beyond even the LGBTQ community. I mean, he wants to connect with the straight-cis-men on campus. And by the way, men are outnumbered on that campus like 2 to 1!
Eric
70% of our campus is women or female-identified. That's great and also it makes it a little bit more challenging because, for me, I'm really passionate about working with male-identified individuals because of the world we live in, right? We work, we live and we operate in the patriarchy and so, a lot of my work, you know, as a cis-man is to unpack that. And so that's really another place where I want to take the center, to start having the conversation amongst men, amongst Black men, specifically, about how we can be better to everyone and how we can understand intersectionality and how the patriarchy really affects everyone.
Lisa
Would that be reaching out beyond LGBT-identified individuals to the broader community for these conversations about masculinity or you're thinking about particularly those who identify as LGBT?
Eric
I think that well, such a loaded question, cause the work starts at home and then we move out from here. So I mentioned earlier that the, you know, discrimination between those who have a sexual identity that's not straight and a gender identity that's not cis, sometimes there can be, you know, “discourse.” So of course I will want to continue to unpack that work. But I also think the work involved, cisgender heterosexual men as well. So, I really want to pioneer that work and you know, really unpack what we think we know about ourselves because a lot of times we think we believe these things because we've been indoctrinated with this kind of stuff, but we might not even believe it. You know, the world says, society says, our parents, our guardians say, so now you are navigating nine months of space by yourself- what does this actually mean to you?
Tiffany
Again, in the right-wing imagination, colleges -- and even elementary schools -- are these places where all of the lefty profs indoctrinate students, brainwashing them or whatever. But what Eric is getting at something beautiful: you give people the space to think, introduce them to folks they have never met before, make space for actual conversations—that’s where change happens!
In so many ways our world is visibly Blacker, browner, and more queer. We have gained some legal protections, there is a lot more media representation, and the internet means you can find community and information wherever you are. But the attacks are relentless. Governors and state legislators are so worried about stopping “wokeness” which this coded racist and queerphobic rhetoric to like pathologize and demonize Black and queer folk. The real people under attack, of course, are not the rich pundits, children’s authors, or politicians, but the folks trying to not be erased from history books, the folks who are over-policed and criminalized, the folks swimming in student debt, the folks in minimum wage jobs, without healthcare or adequate childcare…!
Lisa
Right! A few weeks ago a really hateful transphobic person came to campus to give a talk. And you know, in the past our students have protested incidents of transphobia on campus, but this time - oh my god, it was beautiful - they decided to hold a counter-event called “Celebrating Queer.” There was a DJ, pizza, booths, and tons of dancing.
[clip of students dancing at NCGB]
Tiffany
That is amazing! Look, I love when our people clown the bigots to their faces, but that fight is exhausting. Dancing with your people, letting your joy drown out the haters -- bruh, we need those spaces right now.
Lisa
I totally agree. The work to sustain and protect queer and other marginalized folks and their futures; it is so crucial. And spaces like the LGBTA Resource Center, I mean, they are on the front lines of these struggles.
I actually remember a time when Amber was doing her internship at NCCU – she told me about an event she helped organize where she got some pretty upsetting pushback.
Amber
the R Kelly series? Oh my gosh! So, there was a comment made by somebody, a masculine person within the space. to the extent of “you can’t turn a hoe into a housewife” and unfortunately leading up to that comment, there was a lot of you know, side comments and expressions, um, that kind of leaned into that idea. I felt uncomfortable because, um, multiple reasons, um, because unfortunately, it continued to otherize and fetishize, sexualize, all the things, femme-presenting, femme-bodied individuals and disregarding, um, our sexuality and our, you know, sexual progress, anything like that.
And it's unfortunate because that individual was pretty set in his ideology about it. He's like, “no, I said, what I said just is what it is. I don't care who I offend.” Um, what I have learned from that individual and those who are, who share space with that individual is that I think Jennifer, you might have been one of the people who really started saying this phrase around me is that I'm only here to plant seeds. I try my hardest to separate my personal feelings about beings when I recognize people do not have the same level of knowledge around a particular topic.
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And I also recognize a lot of people are coming in with their own conditioning and socializing. And understand that person and people have similar ideologies as that person you're coming in as a cisgender individual, a masculine-presenting individual, a masc-bodied individual, you have a lot of privilege and because of that privilege, sometimes it clouds your, your thoughts and judgments, your ability to engage safely with others. And prayerfully, as I continue to work within this position, I can provide education that allows people to kind of just break those chains.
Jennifer
We had an alum who would come back and just kind of spend time on campus. And, uh, this person did not really understand the need for having a space specifically, specifically for LGBT identifying folks. And he asked me, “why is there no ‘H’ in the LGBTA center?” And I was like “‘H’? ‘H’ for what?” He was like “H for heterosexual.” And I was just, I thought he was joking. And so I laughed. I really laughed in this guy's face, but I thought he was joking. He was dead serious. And he was just like, “no, I don't feel included in here.” And I was just like, “but if you cross the threshold, you good right?...” That's kind of how this works and that's why we have this specific space where you can come in here and be as gay as we want to be, nobody's ever going to sweat you for it because if you cross that threshold it’s not the same.
And so that's why we have a specific space just for queer-identifying folks. Now, what I loved about this is that I got to see how serious my leadership was about protecting us and really like, no, you deserve to be here. And so then the Dean of Students, he showed up, he was there within minutes tell that person to kick rocks and not to come back again.
One of the things that I've noticed, and I've been very appreciative of with a lot of our staff here is they may not understand the finer points, again, of identity and identity development and all that good stuff and you know, queer culture, trans culture, they don't understand. But what they do understand is like these are our babies and we want to protect them. It’s inspiring and encouraging, to some extent. You run into folks in places that you would not expect it, who are actual, factual allies who are like “no, I'm down for the cause. Let's go!”
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Lisa
You know, hearing that the administrators have Jennifer’s back, its…amazing. Because, the center has become a model for other people trying to start their own centers, whether at an HBCU or a PWI. People from other schools are just them calling up and saying…
Jennifer
“Hey, we're driving up from Georgia. We'll be over from Tennessee. We're going to stop through Durham, can we have an hour or two to kind of just talk with you all about, you know, what the process has been like; what does your programming look like?” And so if we’ve been able to do what we’ve been able to do with the LGBTA Resource Center, with the Women’s Center, I can only imagine what could do if we were adequately funded. Like, I go to other schools, other state-supported schools and even some private schools and maybe the LGBTA Resource Center has a staff of maybe four, I can't imagine.
Tiffany
Lisa, HBCUs in general, are doing all this work with a fraction of the budget of PWIs. That means that when federal or state funding changes, HBCUs feel it the most! And at centers like this, where the work is so intense, that funding could be transformative.
Jennifer
I could just get in here. I could hire people that can do what they can do. I don't have to worry about stitching things together would change some stuff. So, you know, I hate to say it but you know, money. Like not even, I hate to say it. I hate that it is what it is, but money would really change some things.
Amber
I agree with Jennifer. As far as funding; if we have additional funding, I can only imagine the heights within your reach. think that, um, just a part of the narrative for Black folks in America, period, we kind of have to make, know, these big things out of very little, so, we've been able to carry along, but seeing additional support outside of funding would also like just continue to share the relevancy of an HBCU.
Lisa
To put some numbers to this: a 2019 study that said private-HBCUs funding dropped more than 40 percent between 2003 and 2015. 40 percent!! I mean. Tiffany, I’m sure you remember how we saw that play out here in Greensboro a few years ago when Bennett College almost folded.
Tiffany
Absolutely, and I think this constant underfunding is partly why Mackenzie Scott’s millions of dollars to HBCUs was so significant. At this point, I think she has given millions to like 23 HBCUs, including A&T and Winston-Salem State here in North Carolina. But is every school supposed to wait for a gift from Mackenzie Scott? And if a school does get some windfall like that, how much is guaranteed to go to projects like the LGBTA Resource Center? Or adequate staffing for the work?
Lisa
I mean when Jennifer stepped away from the center recently, she was doing like 3 additional jobs!
Jennifer
I was at the LGBTA Resource Center up until September of this year. The Women's Center position had been vacant and they needed someone to serve as the Director for the Women’s Center so I was tapped to do that. So from October of 2020, until September of this year, I served as the Director of the Women's Center, the Associate Director for Diversity Inclusion, and also the Coordinator of the LGBTA Resource Center!
I still love the work! However, comma, I had also been doing that work since 2013. It was time for something new.
Tiffany
Ugh, Lisa! This episode is giving me all the feels!
Lisa
I know!
Tiffany
We have to work so hard to make these beautiful spaces, but the folks doing the work, day in and day out, are getting burned out and pushed out!
Lisa
I know. But, in this case, Tiffany, even though Jennifer was moving on, luckily Eric was already a student leader–or Lavender Liaison, as they call it—
Tiffany
Nice! “Lavender Liaison,” I love it!
Lisa
I know! And he was ready to step into Jennifer’s role.
Eric
I remember, meeting my director and Jennifer for the first time. And we had really great conversations and after that meeting, I said to a friend of mine, you know, this is really great. I'm excited to be, you know, in this student role, I would love to do something like what they do in the future. When I was cleaning out an old wallet, I was transferring wallets. I found their business cards from that day, specifically. And I was just overcome with emotion because I said it, I said, “I would love to do what they're doing.” And now I'm literally in the role. So, I think that that's, you know, something that I hold near and dear to my heart.
{>>music up<<}
Lisa
You know, Tiffany, you have been talking so much about family in this episode and that was the word that almost everyone I spoke to used to describe their work.
Amber
They say in orientation that it’s like “a ‘family-feel,’ It's like a family here” and it really does feel like a family, even as a staff member and, um, being able to pour into students the way some staff and faculty poured into me, um, is very fulfilling. It was always important to be in a university surrounded by people who look like me and have similar interests as far as, like, uplifting, mobilizing folks with similar identities.
Jennifer
So, you know over the past year we've kind of redefined what family looks like and what, what loved ones and what, you know, friends and closeness looks like. And so yeah, you're shifting culture. You're changing the conversation. And I love it because let me tell you something nothing like going to an HBCU may tell you that, but you'll never know it unless you're here. I promise you that. Um, and so to be able to do this type of work at an HBCU, it brings a special badge of honor that I can't describe to you. It just is.
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Lisa
On that note, I want to take a moment to acknowledge our family here at Collegeland. This is our last episode, and listeners, this episode and this goodbye is bittersweet. But! Do stay subscribed, or hit subscribe if you haven’t yet. We’re hoping to be back with a new series, and a new co-host…
Tiffany
That’s me!
Tiffany
So when this all happens, we will drop something in the feed and you will be the first to know what we’re up to.
Lisa
So, yeah, it has been an honor to work with our amazing team, and thank you to every one of you who tuned in with us for this journey.
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Credits
Lisa
Collegeland is produced by Craig Eley and Jade Iseri-Ramos. Danyel Ferrari is our researcher and publicist. Our theme music is by Josh Wilson and additional music is from Blue Dot Sessions.
A special thanks to UNC Greensboro for their support.
Collegeland is hosted by me, Lisa Levenstein, along with Tiffany Holland. The show was created with Nan Enstad. And Richelle Wilson produced season one.
We hope to see you again!